You do not need a PHd in political science or for that matter the credentials of an historian, to come to any other conclusion that there will never be any tangible Palistinian State, not in my life time, or my grt grand childrens life time, nada never.The whole peace process has been and still is a sham.Oslo smoshlo opolo and for good measure popolo"Sophistry" all of it.The best part was Yasser Arafat knew it and laughed all the way to the bank.For mine old Yasser was probably a closet Zionist.The Palastinians I am sure are a bit like our own electorate,slow to realize when they are being sold a pup.Fatah was a bit like our own opposition,a few media sound bites and back to some fact finding missions,in our case checking out the sewers of Venice from the back of a Gondola,in theirs the gambling habits of the French in Monte Carlo.Yassers trips being paid for by the Israelis of course only the Israelis that believed in the peace process naturaly ?.So now the Palistinians have seen the wood for the trees,wallah Hamas.Contrary to what the flat earthers have postulated,the biggest fear for the right wing Israelis and the American administration is not the fear of hundreds of rockets being fired over the border,or the suicide bombers,is the fact that they wont have Hamas listed in the cheques payable list of some Swiss bank.Well Ill concede not all of them,corruption has no favourites.And of course if you don't know the outcome before hand of any peace talks this just wont do.Hamas of course have better relations with the more fundi regimes in the Middle East,visa vie Iran,and in my opinion the crises currently being ginned up now with Iran, will have the added effect of attacking Hamas by proxy.Oh yes Islamism is a fate compli,and unless the more sane leaders of this planet don't get their brains and orifices wired together the whole of the Middle East is going to go up in flames.

Phill.

Phil,
yes, it is difficult for the Palestinians to achieve their own state, given that the Israeli right and the settlement movement are deeply opposed to this.

The Israeli state's activities in the occupied territories as counterproductive to peace and security.Israel undermined the accommodation made by the PLO to an acceptance of the Israeli state at every turn. It carried on building the settlements; it kept up the checkpoints, curfews and land confiscations. The message Israel sent to the Palestinian electorate was stark: peacemaking and moderation do not work. The Palestinians heard it loud and clear - and voted for Hamas.

Things are difficult for Hamas. They have responsibility for daily Palestinian life but because this is under Israeli occupation, they have little power to do the job. So it is a thankless, if not impossible, task.

The Bush administration's response, backed by western partners, was to threaten diplomatic isolation and a funding freeze for the Palestinian Authority unless Hamas recognised Israel and renounced violence.I cannot see Hamas disarming.

Maybe Hamas has an option of concentrating on working to clean out corruption, to extend their health and education services, to improve Palestinian daily life---engage in state-building.

The negative response by Israel and the US paints them into a corner on the recognition issue. They are seeking to isolate Hamas, which as a movement enjoys great legitimacy in the Muslim world.

Doesn't this provide an opportunity for Iran to intervene and provide financial support.

Gary.Again I agree with you toatally you have reinforced for me what I already know.That is why I can't take the peace process seriously.At the risk of being flippant which I tend to do(which you have probably already worked out for your self)the only agreement Yasser Arafat made with the Iraelis, is the menu and wine list to be used at their little talk fests.That is why Hamas scares the hell out of the Israeli goverment and their American masters.Hamas has done more for the Palestinians in the last 2 years than Fatah and the old P.L.O. did in fourty.Hamas is beginning to unite the Palestinians into a common cause. For mine, I have always believed the Palesinians have always had a cause,(and boy have I lost some friends over this)It is their methods in achieving their goals I have reservations about.Hijacking jumbo jets and Munich did more to destroy their credibility then anything that has gone on of recent.But I guess that is a debate for another time.What we tend to do in the West, is to analyse the conflict by referance to events that happened thousands of years ago ie,the Bible,Torah the Old Testement,and in some cases(the flat earthers)the Pelopenesian wars.For the average Palestinian who goes to work in the morning to bake bread rolls it's,Hey! you stole my land and house, and I want it back so "Simple" it hurts.Not withstanding my last post,more and more Israelis are coming to terms with the fact that sooner or later they are going to have to negotiate with the Palestinians wheather it is Hamas or Donald Duck as the goverment.At the end of the day I guess it will be who tires first of cleaning up the body's.I have no doubt that Iran is already funding Hamas,this is adding to what is driving the U.S. into its bomb now, pay later mentallity.If the Republicans dont get the elbow in November,I am moving to Alice Springs.

Phill.