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Steven D. Ross Interview:#6-1 « Previous | |Next »
January 27, 2004

In picking up on the Stephen David Ross interview conducted by Rick over at Artrift, I had difficulty with the tight link between art and beauty that I discerned, even though I have no desire to place a ban on the category of the beautiful in aesthetics.

I suspected that Ross' aesthetics had identified or equated the two. That troubled me as 'art as beauty' would not have made sense of Dada; the ugliness of Goya (eg., the Black Paintings) or the sublime that I previously connected with historical human suffering.

In the sixth part of the interview Rick raises the relationship between art and beauty. Rick asks:


"You wrote a book titled, The Gift of Beauty:The Good as Art at a time (1996) when the relationship between beauty and art had already become questionable and, in many cases, had simply dissolved or was of little interest to many artists. Do you agree that art and beauty have, to a significant degree, parted ways in the last ninety years or so? Or, is the situation more in line with Agnes Martins thought that all art is about beauty even when it is not about beauty; that when it is not about beauty, it is a response to the lack of beauty in the world?"

Good question.

This is how Ross responds by linking beauty to the sublime:


"Beauty has always been interpreted in the two ways I described: as consummatory, fulfilling, and as transfigurative, excessive. Even to the Greeks, and in other cultures as well, there have always been a sense of beauty closer to the grand, fulfilling, proportionate, and complete, and another closer to the unbounded, infinite, transfigurative, uncanny. Sometimes these have been described in terms of the beautiful and the sublime. Sometimes they have been understood to pertain to art, aesthetics, and beauty in unclassifiable ways. One reason is that the discourse and experience of art is frequently beyond words, beyond categories, a secular expression of infinity. So one might employ Levinas's terms: a sense of beauty in being much closer to totality, and a sense of beauty beyond being, excessive, closer to infinity. Infinity here is beyond comprehension, intelligibility, classification, and sensibility. The point is that art and aesthetics and sometimes nature present us with experiences beyond our ability to know and to grasp them. And yet we can grasp and know and experience that."

I accept Ross' understand of beauty as "the grand, fulfilling, proportionate, and complete" and the sublime as "the unbounded, infinite, transfigurative, uncanny." But should beauty and the sublime be considered separate aesthetic categories? Kant, for instance, set the sublime apart from art, located it in nature and described the feeling of the sublime as a trembling sensation of the subject caught between nature and freedom.

Why can we not transplant the sublime into the art world? The sublime becomes a a historical constituent of art after Kant. Can we not redescribe the sublime as art works that quake and vibrate and transgress what is taboo. What is then etched into the sublime is the awesomeness of domination and power. With the idea of historical tremor we have moved a long way from the formally beautiful.

And what has happened to the ugly as an aesthetic category?:
Goya4.jpg

Goya, Old People Eating, The Black Paintings, circa 1820

To understand the beautiful don't you need the ugly? It's a Hegelian point --to know what something is you need to understand how it defined by what it is not.

Was not a lot of cultural product of earlier civilizations----what the modern art institution now calls art---about religion, myth, dread, sex, death?

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| Posted by Gary Sauer-Thompson at 5:53 PM | | Comments (5)
Comments

Comments

In my view, Rosss comment is not a bad example of a widespread tendency in aesthetics to act as if disciplines such as history, anthropology and archaeology had never been invented. Consider his statement:

Even to the Greeks, and in other cultures as well, there have always been a sense of beauty closer to the grand, fulfilling, proportionate, and complete, and another closer to the unbounded, infinite, transfigurative, uncanny.

This appears to be an observation about how people feel/think in a number of other cultures unless other means all, in which case the observation is intended to be universal in application. (Why the Greeks are mentioned specifically is not clear to me.).

Now, imagine coming across that statement in an anthropology textbook. What would one think? Which other cultures are being referred to? Is this how the Australian Aboriginals felt/thought? The Inuit? The ancient Egyptians? The Aztecs? All African tribal cultures? All cultures in all ages? How do we know? What is the evidence? What is the counter-evidence? Etc.

There seems to a strange belief in many areas of aesthetics that one can just go ahead and make statements of this kind without any attempt to justify them - as if aesthetics were somehow exempt from the usual requirements of good scholarship. Ross is by no means alone in doing this. I could give you many examples from other writers.

It seems to me that if aesthetics insulates itself from other areas of knowledge, it can hardly complain if it is viewed as it often is - as a rather dubious and marginal field of study.

Gary

Do you really think the Goya is 'ugly'? I wouldnt say it is beautiful - if, by that, one means it resembles a painting by, say, Raphael or Tiepolo. (And if we don't mean that, what do we mean? Looking like a photo of a film star?)

I think the Goya painting is powerful, haunting, uncanny, disturbing, and various things like that. (A wonderful painting, I think!) But 'ugly' for me doesn't quite fit. Ugly seems to me to connote something that is hard to look at. I don't find the Goya like that. The skull-like face on the right is, for me, particularly fascinating and disturbing.

But for me the issue is deeper than this. Basically, I think the categories of beautiful, sublime, ugly (etc) that aesthetics is so fond of are red herrings. To my mind, those are simply adjectives, among many others, that one might apply to this or that work of art (with the possible exception of ugly). In my view, they have no special aesthetic status - no more, for example, than the adjectives I use above re the Goya. They have gained a special status through the role they played in eighteenth century aesthetics (Kant and various others) which still lingers on. But if, like me, one thinks that eighteenth century aesthetics has not much more than a kind of historical interest now, they just become adjectives like any others where art is concerned.

Derek

Derek, the painting as image is not ugly. Far from it.It is well composed and so formally beautiful.

The subject matter--old age or old bodies ---is what is ugly. The young--young bodies--are what is beautiful. We recoil from old bodies.

This duality is so marked in the images of our consumer culture. As you get older you become invisible in these of being an object of attraction. You increasingly become an object of indifference.

Derek,
There is probably a point of difference here around the categories--not descriptions---of the sublime, ugliness etc.

I'm a recalcitrant Hegelian. So I hold that knowlege comes from the historical categories we use to make sense of our empirical obsevations about an object, situation or environment.

The task of philosophy is question those categories, rework them, dump them if they are of no use, create new ones, or systematise their inter-relationships.

Maybe the traditional handed down categories of aesthetics do not do the job; or are unsuitable for the task at hand. So we need to create new ones--as Deleuze does in order to talk about cinema.
Or pour new wine into old bottles---as Adorno does with beauty---he includes nature into the beautiful in opposition to Hegel who banished nature from aesthetic beauty.

But we need categories to talk about art objects, institutions, reception, etc.

Derek,

I agree compeltely with your remarks about the silo nature of contemporary [analytic?] aesthetics. Most of it is about concepts without content.

Aesthetic analysis implies a critique of society. Social conflicts and problems are inherent in works of art as well as everyday life.

Thae critic elicts and interprets a socio-historical truth that might not have not been intended by the artist or philosopher.

What your comments open up is the space for a philosophical reflection upon aesthetics, its categories and procedures ----the terrain of Adorno's Aesthetic Theory.